Henry McLeish: 'Yes, I would support independence'

The Labour veteran, who helped pioneer devolution, made the intervention in a podcast where he underlined his long held hopes of constitutional reform of the UK under a less centralised system. 

"I believe that Scotland could be independent tomorrow but Scots have to make a judgement," he said.

"They have got to be courageous if they want to take it forward but they have also got to accept the Brexit insanity has made life more complex, more difficult as we move forward as a nation."

During the podcast interview with the Herald, he added: "If the Union doesn't look like from Labour or the Conservatives that is going in the way that I am talking about then yes, I would support independence."

The SNP's deputy leader Keith Brown welcomed McMcLeish's comments which put pressure on Scottish Labour leader Anas Sarwar, who opposes independence and indyref2.

“More and more people in Scotland support an independent Scotland – so it’s welcome that Henry McLeish, one of the fathers of devolution, supports decisions about Scotland being taken by those who live here," Brown said.

“Independence is normal, and Scotland only has to look to the successes of other small independent European nations like Ireland to consider the immense possibilities that lie ahead.

“The alternative is to let Scotland suffer under Westminster control – yoked to a Tory government which pushed through a Brexit that Scotland didn't vote for, plans a brazen grab on Holyrood's powers, and threatens to cruelly cut the lifeline boost to Universal Credit that ordinary people rely on.

"A former Labour First Minister announces that he is now open to independence, but Anas Sarwar fails to even recognise the cast-iron mandate delivered by the people of Scotland to hold a referendum.

"It is very telling that Henry McLeish - one of the architects of devolution - now recognises it is failing Scotland and that the only way to protect Scotland from toxic Tory policies is by becoming an independent country.”

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During the podcast, hosted by Brian Taylor, McLeish underlined his fears over what he called Prime Minister Boris Johnson's "muscular Unionism", arguing that under the current Conservative government devolution was being weakened rather than strengthened following the transfer of powers from Brussels to London post-Brexit.

"There is a deadly intent here. In the sixties Scotland was conceived as a region, in some respects Scotland was conceived contemptuously as just part of the Union, part of the United Kingdom.

"That is still there and of course Boris Johnson by his very nature is a centralist. He doesn't see in my view the intellectual aspects of devolution, Scotland wanting to do more," he said.

"There is nothing coming from the Union which departs from this highly centralised Union. It was a manufactured state in 1707. In 1536 the Welsh joined, 1801 the Irish."

The podcast hosted by BBC Scotland's former political editor is available to view today. SNP president and Scotland's former Brexit secretary Michael Russell and Donald Cameron, the Scottish Tories constitutional affairs spokesperson, also took part in the programme.

On when he would support independence, McLeish set out his views in response to a question about how he would vote if indyref2 was held, saying he didn't think there would be a vote within the next five years.

But he added: "If the Union doesn't look like from Labour or the Conservatives that is going in the way that I am talking about the yes, I would support independence."

Russell then said that the Union was moving in the opposite way McLeish wanted and said that he believed the Union would not be reformed for the better, with Scotland to be treated as an equal partner.

"Things have got worse and I don't see them turning around," said Russell.
"It's not going to happen Henry. Therefore we have to make our mind up about what we are going to do.

"And the way we do that is to allow the people to choose. It's not going to be tomorrow. There is going to be a period between now and whenever the vote is when possibly the UK Government could change, except all sorts of promises were made in 2014 and were not held, so the track record is not good."

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McLeish continued: "If I am convinced that the Union, for a variety of reasons that I have outlined, will not change then I could support independence because I believe each of the nations of the UK has the right to self-determination and move forward.

"All I am arguing is that ... there is a chance of doing something different and let's have a debate about the alternatives to independence before there is a vote on independence."

Taylor then picked up on economic issues relating to independence, including on finance, taxation and public spending, and asked McLeish for his views.

McLeish replied: "In 2014 it seemed to me that economic fears were the ties that bound the Union together at that point and it seems to me that if there is another referendum, as there will be, there will still be salient issues. 

"What I am concerned about is how we resolve the idea that we leave the United Kingdom, seek to join the EU and then have similar difficulties as to what we've seen in Northern Ireland. But the point is about economic fears. 

"If it's only economic fears that are binding us within the Union that's a pretty poor state of affairs.

"And I believe Brian that Scotland could be independent tomorrow but Scots have to make a judgement ... They have got to be courageous if they want to take it forward but they have also got to accept the Brexit insanity has made life more complex, more difficult as we move forward as a nation."

Cameron added that he did not believe "now is the time" for a second independence referendum and was asked for his view on whether Scotland could afford to be an independent economy.

He replied: "I think it would be very, very difficult. I have never said Scotland couldn't afford it."

Cameron then referred to an Institute for Government report, published last week, citing what it said would be difficulties over borrowing and "years of public spending cuts" and issues around what currency would be used.

Russell hit back, and said 11 of the EU's 27 nations were either the same size or smaller than Scotland and were doing better.

"What we see in Scotland is a result of dependence, what we need is the medicine of independence," he said. 

McLeish,  who served as a Scotland Office minister before devolution, became Scotland's second first minister in 2000 after the death of Donald Dewar, leading the Scottish Execuitive coalition with the Liberal Democrats.

He implemented the free personal care for the elderly scheme but quit in November 2001, after only a year in post, for failing to declare office expenses during his time as an MP. He claimed that the issue was “a muddle, not a fiddle” as the SNP heaped pressure on him to go.

First Minister Nicola Sturgeon wants to hold a second independence referndum by the end of 2023 so long as the pandemic is over.

She revealed in her Programme for Government statement to Holyrood earlier this month that she had instructed civil servants to update a new prospectus for independence which had been was paused at the start of the coronavirus crisis.