Adrian Dunbar: 'We are gradually drifting towards a United Ireland'

Paul Breen (PB) – Lots of people back home come to London on theatre breaks. Why would you recommend your latest show, Kiss Me Kate, as one they should come to?

Adrian Dunbar (AD) - We've already had a lot of people over here from Northern Ireland to see the show and making it part of their weekend break or whatever. And it’s a really good show. It's very funny. A great story. It's got a 19 piece band. There are 30 people on the stage. It's in the Barbican Centre, which is a beautiful auditorium and well worth seeing in itself. The Barbican is a really interesting area, a very old Roman area that was built up but then destroyed during the Second World War and rebuilt. So it's a fascinating place to come to in itself. And yeah, I'd thoroughly recommend Kiss Me Kate for anybody coming across. We’ve some people who have come two, three, four times to see the show. It's selling out, but, we're running till September 14.

PB - So what else would you suggest for any Fermanagh or Northern Irish visitors wanting to get a flavour of London?

AD - I'd go to the markets. I'd go to the South bank. I’d go to Soho. There's so much to see in London. And so much of it is free. The galleries are amazing. I'd definitely go to the Tate Modern. And I’d take some of the ferries on the river. Target all those big free venues. The museums are incredible and the likes of Kew Gardens provides a fabulous day out. There's just so much to do in this city. It really is great.

PB – Kiss Me Kate is based on a book by a playwright named Sam Spewack and his wife Bella, I believe. But another Sam has been in the news recently, with Sam Maguire heading to Armagh. Will it ever be Fermanagh’s turn, even for an Ulster title?

AD – That’s the big question, isn’t it? All teams go through disappointment. I was there with my father and brother in 1977 when Armagh were beaten by Dublin and remember the disappointment then. I think though we can take a bit of inspiration from Armagh.

It’s all about just keeping a bunch of guys together who are talented and just sticking with them and the county board sticking with them and the managers sticking with them. It's about pulling together a team of talented players and we do have talented players. We've had some great days out with Fermanagh football but Ulster’s obviously the big challenge. But I do think that if we win in Ulster, whatever Fermanagh team wins in Ulster, it could go on to do even greater things. So yeah, the prize is very big but we’ve got great, talented footballers and we’ll keep our fingers crossed.

PB – Aye, it’s just about getting over the hurdle of that first one. But moving from Gaelic to soccer, there’s an interesting connection between yourself, Alex Ferguson and the character of Superintendent Ted Hastings, I think.

AD - When people ask me who I based Ted Hastings on, I say it was it was just various football managers like Bill Shankly and Alex Ferguson and Arsène Wenger - just great man managers. And so that's who and what I was thinking of. I think that really helped me understand the role of it. But also, I know that Hear my Song, which is a film I wrote, is one of Alex Ferguson's favourite films.

PB – A very interesting fact about Sir Alex, there! He gave the world of football some great catchphrases like ‘squeaky bum time.’ And Ted Hastings has done the same from wee donkeys to sucking diesel. What does it feel like to be quoted so often?

AD - Well, like everybody else in Northern Ireland, I grew up watching British television.

So the idea of creating an iconic character on British TV is a pretty special thing.

And I'm very pleased that I've achieved that. It’s something that gives me great pleasure.

PB – Yes and Ted Hastings is also such a complex character who defies stereotypes.

How much do you reckon characters like Ted Hastings and Lisa McGee’s Derry Girls have changed perceptions of Irish nationalists in Britain?

AD – Derry Girls is a great programme but I’m not sure that I can answer that question.

Maybe it’s one you should put to some English people or some Scottish people. All I know is that it hasn’t changed my attitude to Irish nationalism.

PB - Do you think that people here in England would be happy with a united Ireland?

AD – I think it's very important for people in Northern Ireland to realise how little interest there is in Northern Ireland, from England in particular. They're not really that interested in a hell of a lot of what happens in Northern Ireland. I think Brexit really proved the point of how little the UK government think about aspects of their own policy on Northern Ireland and on the South of Ireland as well. So I don't think ultimately, they will have any problem with the unification of Ireland. It's not an issue for them really. They have other things that are much, much more important.

PB - So will we see a border poll at some point in the future?

AD - Yes I'd imagine that we will see a border poll in the future. I dunno when, but we will see a border poll. Everything's pointing towards that.

PB - Do you think the outcome of that might be a united Ireland or are we, are we ready for that yet, back home?

AD - Well it seems to me that we're just gradually drifting towards a united Ireland. It is actually happening. The unification of the country is happening. Whether anybody likes it or not, it just is. All the old connections are being made again. And certainly a Labour government won't be obstructive the way the Tory government would be towards such certain developments happening. There’s a kind of an inevitability now, I think.

PB - And what has to be done to convince non-nationalists of the benefit of that?

AD - There's an opportunity for everybody to have a very big and deep discussion about where we all want to go and what's best for us all, but what's important is that we all engage in the discussion. Simply to stay outside of the conversation that's happening is not going to be of any benefit to the unionist community. They must, they must engage.

Or they will simply find themselves being left behind.

PB – There’s a lot of theatre on the part of political Unionism, I think.

AD - There’s a lot of posing but it's up to ordinary people to engage with ordinary people.

Sadly the Unionist community has been kept in a lot of fear by their politicians for many, many years. The DUP’s a bit of an anachronism in many ways. They belong to the past somehow. So it would be good for them to drop that particular way of behaving and allow their people to engage.

PB - Should that start right at the point of entering school, with integrated education?

AD - We have to realise that when the Northern Ireland state was put together, the initial idea was to have one system of schooling. But as a sop to the Catholic Church, Craig and Carson and so forth, allowed the Catholic Church to run its own schooling system.

Now, if you wanted to create a divided society, the first place you would start would be to educate children on the basis of their religion. So, in my mind, central to the division and fear in our society is the fact that at five years of age we separate children, often after playing together in nurseries. And there’s no doubt that even at five years of age, you suddenly understand you are different to someone else.

PB – So how do we begin to address this?

AD - I think the sooner that we are educating all our children together the better. I think the idea of shared education is also a kind of halfway house and a sop. And that is the same for the South of Ireland. I'm not talking about getting rid of any of our wonderful schools that are single faith. On the other hand, I think all primary school children should be educated together.

PB - There are a couple of really interesting points in there that are related to what you said earlier about change of government. The Conservative government cut a lot of the funding for educational initiatives. Would you like to see the new Labour government bringing back initiatives to support more integrated education?

AD - Of course I think integrated education needs funding. But we are running two schooling systems in an area that's no bigger than Greater Portsmouth. It is absolutely ridiculous the waste that is happening. We have schools that are half empty. We are spending 40, 50 million pounds a year on taxis to bring children from one side of Belfast and our cities to the other to fill up schools. We don't just need funding. We need one schooling system where we're using one school in the area for all the children. To have a duplicate education system in a tiny little place like Northern Ireland is ridiculous. So it's not about funding. It's about using what we have in a real way.

PB - You also mentioned the Catholic Church’s role in creating segregated education in the first place. Sometimes it’s easier to highlight the other side’s faults, but how important is it that nationalists also face up to historical failures and mistakes?

AD - Yes, everybody has to reflect. I think everybody has to look at themselves and see what the best way of progressing is and be open minded. The important thing is to be generous in your approach to everybody. Everybody has a right to live and worship and be who they are in any forward looking society. But we also have to be careful of not being hassled by religious extremism because that's a big problem pushing a lot of the wars in the world today. And another thing we need to step away from is right-wing thinking.

PB – So maybe we need a shift away from too much of a focus on religion and politics and more of a focus on culture and the arts?

AD - Well, absolutely. Culture and the arts are crucial to any forward thinking, democratic, free society. They are a kind of weather vane or a litmus test of how progressive and free we are. So, we need to invest and value the arts, possibly a bit more than we're doing at the moment. And that’s right across the UK where the Arts are struggling. I'm always pushing for more money to go into the arts, especially for helping young working class kids into universities and into drama schools and into music colleges. I wouldn't be here if there hadn't been some money to pay the fees for me to go to the Guildhall School of Music and Drama next door.

PB - Regarding those studies and your career, do you think you would have had the same success if you had stayed at home?

AD - The opportunities are more limited back home. London's the big centre for theatre here within the UK and within these islands. Therefore it was natural to gravitate towards London, especially as I started here at drama school. However, I also went to Belfast where I’ve worked a lot over the years. But ultimately you find yourself back in London working on TV and so forth. So no, I don't think it's possible for anybody to progress in the Arts without gravitating towards the big centres of culture.

PB - Okay, but one feature of your work has been that you've contributed so much to your roots in terms of things like the Beckett Festival in Enniskillen.

AD - Yes, I have very strong connections with home. I was very happy to help Sean Doran set up the Beckett festival and be part of it for many years. I have a connection with the Aisling Centre too and with Enniskillen Gaels and I’m very proud of that. I also have a house just over the border in North County, Leitrim, so I'm there quite a bit, when I can get there. And through my brothers and sisters living over there, I’m in touch and very connected with all that’s happening in Enniskillen.

PB - And as a Fermanagh native over here, what do you tell Londoners about the place that we come from?

AD - (laughs heartily) - Well, like a lot of people, I don't tell anybody anything because I'd rather they didn't come. So I tell everybody Donegal’s fantastic and to go to Donegal to keep them away from where I am.

PB – If you don’t want visitors to Enniskillen, feel free to send them to Brookeborough because it could do with a wee bit of tourism.

AD - Maybe you should get Bobbie Hanvey involved in that. He knows so much history.

He told me recently that America’s famous Boston College was founded by a Jesuit priest born in Brookeborough (Fr. John McElroy, 1782-1877).

PB – I was born in Brookeborough too and never knew that until now.

AD – Yes. Bobbie even went and took photographs of his grave. But in terms of tourism, Fermanagh’s just beautiful. The lakes are beautiful. And I do send people there and then get texts from them telling me how amazing it is – that they’ve just been swimming off Devenish Island or they're taking a boat down to the lake. Or they've just been down through Lisnarick or all the way down to Newtown and how the whole county is amazing. It’s such an easy sell if you want to have a beautiful holiday on the lakes.

(Laughs again). And I always recommend anyone who goes to Fermanagh to go over to Bundoran because that's to keep them away from Leitrim.

PB - Would you ever think about moving back to Ireland permanently in the future?

AD - No, I don't think so. I think I'll just keep on the road. That's my idea. Just not staying anywhere for too long. So I'll be in London for a while and then I'll go and stay in Leitrim for a while and then, you know, wherever else. Because work's taking me all over the place. So I can't really base myself anywhere permanently.

PB – And have you any last thoughts to share with our readers?

AD - I would definitely like to say a few things about the County town. I think one of the big problems we've had in Enniskillen over the years is that a lot of major decisions about what happens in the town are taken in Belfast. And they're taken by people who really have no idea of the aesthetics of the town whatsoever. At the minute, we're about to have a new bridge put in at The Killyhevlin Hotel and I believe the designs for the bridge are really ugly. We have a beautiful theatre sitting over the lake and the bridge will go across the front of it. We cannot have any more bad decisions coming from Belfast about what we have to look at.

PB – Yeah, the aesthetics of the town need to be preserved.

AD - For example, The West Bridge, which my father worked on, is a beautiful structure.

Actually the lines of the bridge, the concrete lines of the bridge itself are quite nice, but there's these terrible railings across the bridge which absolutely make it an eyesore. And that’s right in front of one of the most amazing views in all of Ireland, which is the, Enniskillen Castle.

PB – What else could and should be done for the town?

AD - What I'd really like to see happen at some time is to get the police to move out of the police station which was the Castle Barracks. I’d get them to move out beside the new hospital, the SWAH. And to strip away all that stuff at the front of the barracks to give us the view down Queen Street again which we had when I was a child, so you could see into what is one of the town’s nicest buildings. I’d like to see something similar to what’s happened with Ebrington Barracks in Derry, so that the view, the Barracks and the buildings are restored to the town. Possibly, they could be developed as an art gallery or some other type of art space, because they are beautiful old buildings and they could be developed in a most amazing way.

PB – So why isn’t this happening?

AD - Unfortunately in Northern Ireland, the county towns are hamstrung. And I’m thinking of Omagh too as a particular example here. The county towns are hamstrung by decisions that are made in Belfast by planners who have no idea of the aesthetic of the town or the layout of the town itself. They end up destroying lots of stuff just through crass decisions that they make. So I'd like new railings on the West Bridge. And I would like the view down Queen Street, the barracks to be replaced. As I said, I'd like to see the police move out of the town. And I'd like to see more social housing built in the town because there are car parks in places where we should have social housing. We need to get people back. Back on the island, in my opinion. There were loads of people living on the island when I was a child. And I'd like to see that restored again.

Kiss Me Kate (https://kissmekatemusical.com/) is running at London’s Barbican Theatre until September 14.